[PostFactum]

andyt andyt:

Don't know what you are talking about. PF defended not acting against the insurgents, the govt acted and Russia didn't invade. PF has everybody who's anti-West a russian agent, reporters tell us there's significant support for the pro-russian side. He has his biases and they are very clear here. Maybe they fit in with yours, which is why you think he's the font of intel, but there are other povs that need to be taken into account.

Read again those post where I was telling you not to believe me and pray.

[PostFactum]

Member of Ukrainian parliament, brother of Dobkin.

[Winnipegger]

PostFactum PostFactum:

Member of Ukrainian parliament, brother of Dobkin.

What's the story?

[PostFactum]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

PostFactum PostFactum:

Member of Ukrainian parliament, brother of Dobkin.

What's the story?

Well, I think it's obvious.

[Winnipegger]

Some member of parliament is ignored. Frustrated that he isn't allowed to speak?

[PostFactum]

So today:
1. Terrorists say that all this time they have been defending, now they are going to attack.
2. Ukrainian election department confirmed procedure according to which, inhabitants of Donezk and Lugansk regions will be able to vote in any other region of Ukraine they want at 25-th of May elections.
3. In Lugaansk principal of school was kidnapped.
4. Lavrov says that Russia is not going to send troops to Ukraine. (Of course not, they are already there)
5. With Crimea, Ukraine lost 1 trillion of griven ().
6. Terrorists attack business, shops, and factories.
7. In Donezk and Lugansk oblast there is no food in shops, people eat what has left.

[PostFactum]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

Some member of parliament is ignored. Frustrated that he isn't allowed to speak?

No he just has too much money for drugs, better will be to buy few bulletproof vests for our soldiers. None called doctor or cops, so I think he won't be punished.

[andyt]

$1:

Ukraine crisis: Brokered talks to begin in Kiev

Talks to end the crisis in Ukraine are due to begin in Kiev, brokered by international monitors, but pro-Russian rebels look unlikely to attend.

The round table was organised as part of a roadmap drawn up by the Organisation for Security and Co-operation and Europe (OSCE).

Government and regional figures are to attend but the idea was for the talks to be as inclusive as possible.

The OSCE - a security and rights monitoring group drawn from European and North American states - said Russian President Vladimir Putin supported its initiative.

A veteran German diplomat, Wolfgang Ischinger, has been brought in to moderate Wednesday's talks.

But reports suggest that representatives of the pro-Russian separatists, who in any case lack a single leader or agreed goals, will not attend the talks. Furthermore, the interim government has refused to talk to separatists.

"The government in Kiev does not want to listen to the people of Donetsk," Denis Patkovski, a member of a pro-Russian militia in Sloviansk, Donetsk region, told the Associated Press news agency. "They just come here with their guns."

Well it's a start. Maybe this will isolate the hardcore separatists. If these separatists are just puppets of Russia, how is it Russia supports these talks but the separatists don't?

$1:

Are you in the Donetsk or Luhansk region, or elsewhere in Ukraine? Will you be voting in the presidential election on 25 May? What do you think of the "self-rule" referendums? You can send us your thoughts by emailing [email protected] using the subject line "Ukraine".

[PostFactum]

andyt andyt:

$1:

Are you in the Donetsk or Luhansk region, or elsewhere in Ukraine? Will you be voting in the presidential election on 25 May? What do you think of the "self-rule" referendums? You can send us your thoughts by emailing [email protected] using the subject line "Ukraine".

They don't pay me, so I won't help journalists to dig money.

[stratos]

"It's not just Russia stirring the shit" doesn't mean that Russia isn't stirring the shit. Get it?

Your second two "contradictions" actually agree with each other. Not sure what your problem is there. At first the Ukrainian soldiers stood there with their thumbs up their asses while the insurgents took more and more areas. Then finally they decided to actually attack these insurgents - good"

Then EXACTLY who else was stirring the shit. As I've pointed out to you previously the insurgents ARE the Russians. The Separatists are the populace. Thus by saying over and over again insurgents you are talking about an outside force (non populace) who is instigating the issue. So if they are not the Russians who exactly are they?

$1:

Sanctions should be done. You do realize that the sanctions are quite mild don't you? That the west can enact much harsher sanctions, but that they would hurt the west a lot, not just Russia.

Oh I do know that and also stated that a long while back that the sanctions are not working are weak and frankly of no use in this situation with out military backing. But once again you dodge the question. What else will/should the West do in your opinion. You have said that the Ukraine should not expect help from the west if it wont stand up for itself. Well they are standing up for themselves so what now? Your earlier comments about don't expect help implies that help would come when they did so what now. Sanctions were already in place and thus just saying ohhh tougher sanctions now is not something new it's the same thing the west was doing even prior to you rant about how great sanctions are. So once again what exactly should the west do to aid the Ukraine. You demanded that the Ukraine fight before the west would help well they are fighting so now what's your next step.

$1:

It would appear that Russia has backed off from invading Ukraine at this point. They are calling for talks, everybody is calling for talks - as pointed out in one of my posts.

And everyone was calling for talks over a month ago even Russia was calling for talks while Russia was still moving forces up to the boarder. They're forces are still there so exactly how is that "backing off"?

[andyt]

You're misreading what I'm saying, maybe that's my fault. I'm not saying another outside force is stirring the shit, but that the insurgency isn't just stirred up by Russia, but consists mostly of Ukrainians. The insurgents are not all russian by any stretch of the imagination.

I've said what I think the west can and should do. You don't agree, that's fine.

Russia backed off by not supporting the referendum. They've basically pulled the rug out from under the separatists, and don't seem in any hurry to annex East Ukraine as the separatists have called for. And again, the head of NATO has said, as I repeatedly have posted here, that he has changed his mind and doesn't think Russia will invade, that it can achieve its aims without invading. Are you going to discount Breedlove's opinion too, or just keep ignoring it?

The talks probably won't produce much unless Kyiv is willing to talk to the separatists - everybody should be at the table.

[Winnipegger]

PostFactum PostFactum:

5. With Crimea, Ukraine lost 1 trillion of griven ().

Yea, that bugs me, but I don't see anything anyone can do about that.

When separatists in Quebec tried to secede from Canada in 1995, Canada said if they do separate then they would have to take a portion of Canada's federal debt. If Quebec separates with 25% of Canada's population, then they would have to accept 25% of Canada's debt. The separatists didn't like that, but tough! Furthermore, the separatists claimed all military bases in Quebec would be theirs, along with all weapons and equipment. Canada said no. For one thing, they would not get to take the CF-18 fighter jets in Bagotville, Quebec.

Applying that to Crimea: the Ukrainian navy should have remained Ukrainian. And all Ukrainian military bases in Crimea should have remained Ukrainian. Before annexing Crimea, Russia had navy bases there, and paid Ukraine rent for that land. That should have been reversed; let Ukraine retain navy bases, and pay Crimea rent. But Russia just took them. Including all ships, tanks, armoured personnel carriers, assault rifles, etc.

According to Wikipedia, the current Ukrainian currency is the hryvnia. "Hryvnia" for numbers ending with 2, 3, or 4; "hryven" for numbers ending with 5 to 9 and 0. Translating from cyrillic to English can give different spelling, but I find it interesting that Wikipedia starts the word with "H" while the person who lives there uses "G". But if that is what we're talking about, then today's exchange rate is
1 CAD = 10.7839 UAH
So 1 trillion griven would be about $100 billion Canadian dollars.

[stratos]

$1:

I've said what I think the west can and should do.

You said not to expect help from the west unless the Ukrainian Gov. started fighting back. Not unreasonable per-say. Yet Sanctions were already on going and still being put in place and "ramped up". So what else exactly did you mean by help. You seriously can not have meant that hey if the Ukraine does not stand up for its self the west will stop the sanctions.

$1:

And again, the head of NATO has said, as I repeatedly have posted here, that he has changed his mind and doesn't think Russia will invade, that it can achieve its aims without invading.

Well the Russian forces are still poised at the boarder... Here let me put it this way. I have a gun pointed at you and say I'll pull the trigger if you don't (insert what ever) now you start doing what I want you to do or things start going my way. The gun is still there, things are happening as I want. Yeah I probably wont pull the trigger. So Hey I'm backing off right? I'm getting what I want so don't worry I wont pull the trigger.

Now tell me how Russia has backed off.

[andyt]

By help I meant sanctions. Nothing else we can do. I don't see a military option. But if Ukraine had continued to stand meekly by while insurgents took more and more of the country, sanctioning Russia wouldn't do much, since as I've pointed out, this isn't just Russia driving this, these are Ukrainians that don't like what happened in Kyiv.

As for your last question, you're just repeating yourself now, and can't seem to accept my answer, so I suggest you drop it.

[stratos]

$1:

As for your last question, you're just repeating yourself now, and can't seem to accept my answer, so I suggest you drop it.

I'm repeating myself because you throw out answers that 1: are a bit of a doge and 2: Have been shown not to be what you say they are.

$1:

By help I meant sanctions.

Yet we were already doing sanctions so I guess you meant sanctions with more Teeth in them which is what I said we should have done a long time ago and that the sanctions in place then and now are nothing and do not and can not sway Russia.

As for:

$1:

Nothing else we can do. I don't see a military option.

How about a UN/NATO peace keeping force? Not what I would call a Military option but an option that might work. Peace keeping forces don't have a great history but it is better then the West standing by going oh well we put sanctions in place we must give them time to work.

Now don't have a heart attack. I do agree with you on the peace talks and that they won't work if the separatists are not part of them.