[saturn_656]

He's said before. Somewhere not far from the capital.

Although I imagine he's gone Rambo now. He's probably out in the country, prepping surprises for Ivan.

[andyt]

So Canada is sending unarmed military personnel to Ukraine as monitors. They will be "protected" by the Ukrainian army. You know, the one that stands by as town after town is taken over by the insurgents. Our monitors will likely join the OSCE hostages shortly, with lots of handwringing and angry denunciations on our part. Harper will have some very stern words for the miscreants. I guess since they're Canadians they won't be treated too bad and be back home in a few months when things settle down. Why not stop the pretense here, everybody but Russia is impotent and unwilling to act. Hoist the white flag already.

[DrCaleb]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

PF - What part of Ukraine are you currently residing in? I understand if you choose not to answer.

Lyiv, IIRC. Western Ukraine.

[Goober911]

andyt andyt:

So Canada is sending unarmed military personnel to Ukraine as monitors. They will be "protected" by the Ukrainian army. You know, the one that stands by as town after town is taken over by the insurgents. Our monitors will likely join the OSCE hostages shortly, with lots of handwringing and angry denunciations on our part. Harper will have some very stern words for the miscreants. I guess since they're Canadians they won't be treated too bad and be back home in a few months when things settle down. Why not stop the pretense here, everybody but Russia is impotent and unwilling to act. Hoist the white flag already.

They are accepting volunteers ya know.

[andyt]

Volunteer to be taken hostage while my "protectors" do nothing? No thanks.

Again, the president himself has called the forces that won't act traitors. Seems some Ukrainians do expect the security forces to do something. Just allowing he insurgents to take over won't accomplish anything except to allow them to take over. If this was in Canada, would you support us standing idly by while a supposedly minority faction takes over the country?

Tell me how the govt will take control, as you say, by doing nothing? The insurgents will get tired and go home?

[Goober911]

andyt andyt:

Volunteer to be taken hostage while my "protectors" do nothing? No thanks.

Again, the president himself has called the forces that won't act traitors. Seems some Ukrainians do expect the security forces to do something. Just allowing he insurgents to take over won't accomplish anything except to allow them to take over. If this was in Canada, would you support us standing idly by while a supposedly minority faction takes over the country?

Tell me how the govt will take control, as you say, by doing nothing? The insurgents will get tired and go home?

Just wondering if you had any answers.

[andyt]

I do, same as the president. Engage the insurgents, don't just give up and run away. There's way less insurgents, only a few hundred than UK soldiers and police. How the fuck is doing nothing an answer, how will that resolve the situation?

If Quebec used force of arms to separate, backed by the US, would you support us doing nothing, just wave bye bye? Worse than nothing, because soldiers are still getting attacked and killed. If you're not going to do anything, at least order them back to base to protect the arms there.

What exactly is your answer, except do nothing because this will somehow resolve the situation?

[Goober911]

andyt andyt:

I do, same as the president. Engage the insurgents, don't just give up and run away. There's way less insurgents, only a few hundred than UK soldiers and police. How the fuck is doing nothing an answer, how will that resolve the situation?

If Quebec used force of arms to separate, backed by the US, would you support us doing nothing, just wave bye bye? Worse than nothing, because soldiers are still getting attacked and killed. If you're not going to do anything, at least order them back to base to protect the arms there.

What exactly is your answer, except do nothing because this will somehow resolve the situation?

The President stated that violence would not be used. Did you miss that?

[andyt]

Here's some people who didn't just give up:

$1:

Standing outside Luhansk's police headquarters on Wednesday, Tatiana Pogukay was close to tears. "We are still here. We didn't surrender. But Kiev betrayed us," she said. Her emotion was understandable. The previous night she and her colleagues had fended off an armed attack by 50 pro-Russia separatists. The gunmen in fatigues attempted to storm the building. One fired warning shots in the air; some scaled the roof; others rammed the rear entrance with a Kamaz truck....

Despite some heroic resistance, the reality is this: most of east Ukraine is now a separatist fiefdom. The balance of power is tipping. It is moving inexorably away from the beleaguered government in Kiev, and towards militants supported by Moscow who are on the brink of declaring their own autonomous state.

When the president called the forces traitors for not acting, what did he mean, if he doesn't want them to use violence? Sing nice lullabies to the insurgents. Tell me again, by doing nothing, how will this in any way prevent a Russian takeover or at least separation of the East?

[Goober911]

andyt andyt:

Here's some people who didn't just give up:

$1:

Standing outside Luhansk's police headquarters on Wednesday, Tatiana Pogukay was close to tears. "We are still here. We didn't surrender. But Kiev betrayed us," she said. Her emotion was understandable. The previous night she and her colleagues had fended off an armed attack by 50 pro-Russia separatists. The gunmen in fatigues attempted to storm the building. One fired warning shots in the air; some scaled the roof; others rammed the rear entrance with a Kamaz truck....

Despite some heroic resistance, the reality is this: most of east Ukraine is now a separatist fiefdom. The balance of power is tipping. It is moving inexorably away from the beleaguered government in Kiev, and towards militants supported by Moscow who are on the brink of declaring their own autonomous state.

When the president called the forces traitors for not acting, what did he mean, if he doesn't want them to use violence? Sing nice lullabies to the insurgents. Tell me again, by doing nothing, how will this in any way prevent a Russian takeover or at least separation of the East?

I gave you the info- Google is your friend. I do not do your research.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... on_framing

[andyt]

Sorry won't open for me. Maybe just summarize how doing nothing will stop Russia?

[Winnipegger]

I'm watching "The National" on CBC. They showed video of protestors taking the prosecutor's office in Donets'k. Police just stood there with riot shields, while "protestors" threw rocks. The "protestors" succeeded. This shows lack of knowledge how to be riot police. Here is video of "kettling" at the G20 summit in Toronto. What was done by Canadian police was not justified, but far more effective. In Toronto, protestors just wanted to chant and wave signs. They wanted world leaders to hear them, and they had no intention of storming the fence. But those tactics are exactly what Ukraine needs now.



From this CBC story:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/g20-kettling-commander-among-45-officers-to-be-charged-1.1202465

I'm trying to emphasize police action, not military action. But effective police action. When insurgents (claiming to be "protestors") arrive, arrest them all. Don't have a "paddy wagon", an armoured van to contain numbers of people under arrest and transport them to jail? Then use school busses, or city transit busses. Spot-weld expanded steel mesh over windows.

And use water cannon. So this isn't too "Western", I'll give video from RT. This is today.


PostFactum, are Ukraine police reading this?

[andyt]

I'm getting the impression that there's a lot more pro-russian sympathy than we in the West want to admit. In which case it's best if East Ukraine goes to Russia anyway, if those people want either independence or to join Russia. No point fighting for people who don't want to be fought for.
The Ukrainian pres has admitted the East is lost, and has put his troops on full alert to try to save the rest. Why he didn't do this earlier I'll never know. Now we'll see if Western Ukraine is willing to stand up for itself. There's already trouble at the Maidan, between it seems, two pro-Western group. Or wherever the sympathies of the group occupying the Maidan lie, can't quite figure that out.

The eastern Ukraine police are either sympathetic to the Russians, bought off or afraid, or all three. The pres has called them traitors. They're not going to do anything, way too late anyway.

[Gunnair]

Agreed. Release what's already gone and figure out where the line in the sand is - even if that's the western border.

[andyt]

Well, finally somebody that's not just jabbering on how doing nothing will outfox the Russians so they'll just give up and go home.